the whole point was, if we can label our former bosses, rebekah brooks, andy coulson who are arrested, not criminal masterminds but engaged in a media empire where criminality was rif, if that media empire got david cameron elected as the british prime minister, that's a good story. >> i have a break coming up. since you mentioned rebekah brooks and andy coulson, both former editors of "news of the world," do you have any doubt that they knew phone hacking was going on at that paperer? >> i have no doubt whatsoever. piers morgan was also my editor, but in that time in 1994-'5, it wasn't illegal. you could sit outside someone's house and tap into their phone conversations and record all of it. and also look at their messages. i need to ask a lawyer actually, is it legal for a wife to hack into her husband's phone if she thinks he's cheating? about 10% of the population of britain have done that, too sgle well ooh keep our focus on journalists. paul mcmull land, good luck with the pub. >> thanks. >>> coming up on the second part of "reliable sources," debt talks collapse after news repo